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Eric D. Williams took over the Seahawks beat and Seahawks Insider blog in December. Williams has covered the Seahawks, Sonics and high school sports for The News Tribune since joining the paper in 2006. Eric lives in Tacoma with his wife and two children.
Tacoma News Tribune columnist Dave Boling also contributes to the Seahawks Insider blog.
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Tuesday, May 6th, 2008
Posted by Frank Hughes @ 10:37:55 pm
Here is my story for tomorrow's News Tribune:
KIRKLAND – The Seattle Seahawks are not going to renegotiate wide receiver Bobby Engram’s contract, despite Engram’s displeasure with his current salary.
Engram skipped a second day of the team’s four-day voluntary mini-camp on Tuesday in protest of what he feels is an unfair contract based on his record-setting production last year.
But the Seahawks are adamant that Engram plays out the final season of his two-year, $3.4 million contract, after which they would be willing to negotiate with Engram as a free agent.
Engram wrote a letter to coach Mike Holmgren, dropping it off on his desk on Tuesday morning.
Though Holmgren said he had not yet read the letter before he met with the media following Tuesday’s practice, he said he assumed the letter explained why Engram is skipping the team’s mini-camp this week.
If that was indeed the case, certainly some of what Engram told Holmgren is that his $1.7 million salary was almost half of what injured flanker Deion Branch ($3.5 million) and Nate Burleson ($3.25 million) will make.
However, the team feels that it rewarded Engram with his current two-year deal after Engram missed nine games during the 2006 with a thyroid condition, a year in which Engram caught only 24 passes for 290 yards. Engram was paid $1.4 million for that season.
Engram also may have explained to Holmgren that the team does reward players for their contributions. It recently gave middle linebacker Lofa Tatupu a six-year, $42 million extension even though Tatupu had two years left on his rookie contract that would have paid him a total of $1.1 million. Engram caught a franchise-record 94 passes last season for 1,147 yards.
The Seahawks counter that Tatupu is a 25-year-old three-time Pro Bowler with no history of injuries who they did not want to get on the open market and risk losing.
Engram also certainly is trying to leverage his situation. With Branch sidelined for training camp and at least part of the season, the Seahawks and quarterback Matt Hasselbeck are forced to rely upon Engram, Nate Burleson and a group of young, unproven receivers.
But the Seahawks believe Branch, who had reconstructive knee surgery in January, will be back sooner than expected. They also believe that either Courtney Taylor, Ben Obomanu or Logan Payne is ready to be a productive receiver.
Furthermore, at 35, the Seahawks know Engram can hardly afford to lose this year’s salary and a season of not playing, perhaps the reason that Holmgren said he thinks Engram will be at training camp, which starts at the end of July and is mandatory.
“We need Bobby,” Holmgren said. “He is one of our best offensive players. This isn’t the first time something like this has happened. There are business decisions to be made. I hope they work it out.”
Holmgren said he had “an inkling” that Engram would not be at the team’s practice facility this week after speaking to Engram during the mandatory weekend mini-camp, which Engram attended but in which he did not fully take part.
“He said there was a chance he wouldn’t participate,” Holmgren said. “He has been so good for us and he is an emotional player and the business side of this gets emotional at times. (Skipping voluntary workouts) is the one thing (players) perceive they can do. I just know we need him here and we are kind of counting on him to have a great year.”
Burleson, who considers Engram a mentor, said he was surprised that Engram is not at camp because he has not seemed unhappy and has not said anything regarding his contract status.
“In the past few weeks, Bobby has been out here smiling, coaching us up like he usually does,” Burleson said. “Bobby has been ready to go. I haven’t really seen too much that is making me too concerned about it.”
In fact, Burleson said, he is almost positive that Engram will be in uniform when the Seahawks play their first game.
“When there are 60,000 people out there and the lights come on at Qwest Field, Bobby is going to be ready to play,” Burleson said. “I continue to say that Bobby is one of the most consistent receivers I have played with in my life. Once game time comes around, I am not concerned about the offseason.
Categories: Miscellaneous
• 39 comments
Thank you PDXCOP80,
Its nice to see someone else show some perspective. We have no idea what this letter said. How many other players would have given his coach the same courtesy? Engram deserves much better than to be trashed by anonymous fans that assume too much.
COMMENTS:
I'm here to defend Engram against the drooling masses.
1. VOLUNTARY means voluntary. He's done nothing wrong (yet).
2. Engram didn't have a press conference. He communicated with his coach in a letter. Whoever is bleeding this to the press is doing so for publicity reasons. That's just sick. "They" have already started to plead their case to the media. Engram has not. Who's displaying class as of the moment?
He hasn't done anything wrong (yet). Please try to refrain from the typical character assassination that follows this sort of situation. TIA. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt until he does something wrong like everyone deserves.
1. VOLUNTARY means voluntary. He's done nothing wrong (yet).
2. Engram didn't have a press conference. He communicated with his coach in a letter. Whoever is bleeding this to the press is doing so for publicity reasons. That's just sick. "They" have already started to plead their case to the media. Engram has not. Who's displaying class as of the moment?
He hasn't done anything wrong (yet). Please try to refrain from the typical character assassination that follows this sort of situation. TIA. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt until he does something wrong like everyone deserves.
Does Ruskell really think Engram will re-sign here as a free agent after this?? Ha Ha Ha! Mind you it's possible that due to age this could be Engram's last season.
Someone on the previous thread suggested offering Engram some performance incentives but no salary boost to sooth this over. That seems like a common sense win-win solution to me.
Someone on the previous thread suggested offering Engram some performance incentives but no salary boost to sooth this over. That seems like a common sense win-win solution to me.
I do not know his financial situations (divorce) but for a veteran who has been playing the game for so long, I would not think money would be such big a factor now. The risk of damaging his image and relationship with fans is not worth the trouble of fighting for a few a hundred thousand dollars.
I know the NFL is about what you have done for me lately, and, unlike some fans, I always want the players to make more money. But don't forget that the Hawks also brought him into the fold after he tore up his knees in Chicago, and let him recovered for a year. It has been a two-way relationship between him and the Hawks. He has given the Hawks and fans more than we could have asked for, and the Hawks have also rewarded him fairly. So stop squawking and hold up your ends of the bargain, Bobby!
I know the NFL is about what you have done for me lately, and, unlike some fans, I always want the players to make more money. But don't forget that the Hawks also brought him into the fold after he tore up his knees in Chicago, and let him recovered for a year. It has been a two-way relationship between him and the Hawks. He has given the Hawks and fans more than we could have asked for, and the Hawks have also rewarded him fairly. So stop squawking and hold up your ends of the bargain, Bobby!
You're assuming Engram would accept incentives in lieu of more guaranteed money. Keep in mind that he has missed significant time due to injury in two of his last three seasons and, at age 35, the chances of that happening again are fairly high. If he takes a contract with incentives and gets hurt again, he hasn't done himself any favors.
To put it another way, if Engram is dissatisfied with his pay in regards to Branch and Burleson, he's not going to be likely to settle for incentive clauses. Even if Branch never sets foot on the field this year he'll still make $3.5 mil. If Bobby wants more money, why would he wager that additional money on his health when Branch will get his money regardless of his health.
I don't like the fact that the team has stated so publicly that they will not renegotiate with Engram. Beyond that, I can see both sides of the argument. It would help to form an opinion if we knew the kind of money Engram was asking for.
To put it another way, if Engram is dissatisfied with his pay in regards to Branch and Burleson, he's not going to be likely to settle for incentive clauses. Even if Branch never sets foot on the field this year he'll still make $3.5 mil. If Bobby wants more money, why would he wager that additional money on his health when Branch will get his money regardless of his health.
I don't like the fact that the team has stated so publicly that they will not renegotiate with Engram. Beyond that, I can see both sides of the argument. It would help to form an opinion if we knew the kind of money Engram was asking for.
I'm really surprised that Bobby pulled this. In fact it irritates the crap out of me. Lofa played under a contract achieving 3 pro bowls and anchoring a defence. He was undercompensated. I guess this is all about "which moves" for Bobby. Doesn't this just seem out of character for him. I'm guessing it's his agent.
That's sort of the point. Yes, we brought him in from Chicago and let him rehab, and yes, he has given us more than we as fans have asked for. But for all that, there are two other guys making nearly twice what he is, and they haven't done as much...in fact, one of them is already expected to miss significant time next season, just like Bobby did 2 years ago, at twice the price.
Also bear in mind, despite his age, he set the franchise record for receptions just last year.
I think this could turn into a PR nightmare for management if they mishandle it...and they appear to be mishandling it as we speak.
Also bear in mind, despite his age, he set the franchise record for receptions just last year.
I think this could turn into a PR nightmare for management if they mishandle it...and they appear to be mishandling it as we speak.
I can easily understand Engram's position. He's frustrated that he's not getting paid anywhere near the same amount as two other guys who haven't contributed even half as much as he has to the success of this team over the last couple of seasons.
This sort of thing happens in every workplace in the western world... heck, it's happened to me before. You look at the guy across the next desk/factory floor/sideline and you know he's getting paid more than you but when the chips are down, the company/team are relying on you to get the job done. It is incredibly frustrating. Add to it the fact that Engram is in the twlight of his career - and he probably hasn't had many/any 'big' deals with either Chicago or Seattle [he was always one of those 'under-rated' guys] - and it becomes even more painful.
Bottom line - the guy is entitled to tell his employers how he feels in a calm & collected manner, state his case for an increased salary and let them know that he's not going to be involved in non-mandatory activities for the time being. He hasn't hurt the team or talked down the organisation. The guy is doing it the right way, in my opinion.
This sort of thing happens in every workplace in the western world... heck, it's happened to me before. You look at the guy across the next desk/factory floor/sideline and you know he's getting paid more than you but when the chips are down, the company/team are relying on you to get the job done. It is incredibly frustrating. Add to it the fact that Engram is in the twlight of his career - and he probably hasn't had many/any 'big' deals with either Chicago or Seattle [he was always one of those 'under-rated' guys] - and it becomes even more painful.
Bottom line - the guy is entitled to tell his employers how he feels in a calm & collected manner, state his case for an increased salary and let them know that he's not going to be involved in non-mandatory activities for the time being. He hasn't hurt the team or talked down the organisation. The guy is doing it the right way, in my opinion.
I fully agree with mquinn73 above, BE is doing this the right way.
But I disagree with others, in that I don't think the 'Hawks are doing anything wrong. Somebody leaked BE's letter to the press but we don't know that it was anybody from the management team - bad on them if it was but it could have been BE's agent, mother-in-law or the janitor. The press then asked about it and the FO explained their position. No fault there. Not yet anyway.
Also no fault that the FO won't renegotiate a contract under duress.
So far it's just a "situation", no blame to be handed out in either direction. Both sides are going about this the right way.
But I disagree with others, in that I don't think the 'Hawks are doing anything wrong. Somebody leaked BE's letter to the press but we don't know that it was anybody from the management team - bad on them if it was but it could have been BE's agent, mother-in-law or the janitor. The press then asked about it and the FO explained their position. No fault there. Not yet anyway.
Also no fault that the FO won't renegotiate a contract under duress.
So far it's just a "situation", no blame to be handed out in either direction. Both sides are going about this the right way.
Burleson said. “I continue to say that Bobby is one of the most consistent receivers I have played with in my life."
This really isn't saying much having only played with U of Nevada and garbage Vikings receivers. Not a very strong base there.
Anyway... Why doesn't Bobby just take the money he made when he didn't play and move it over to this year? Now that would be fair. I mean come on Bobby... you're 35!
I appreciate to the fullist him stepping up last year and having a good season but keep in mind that was from the slot where you might get matched up against a LB or safety. At the X or Y spot Engram would not have had the season he had last year. I certainly don't think he'll be up for the task this year either.
Honor your contract as the FO did when you were out all those games.
This really isn't saying much having only played with U of Nevada and garbage Vikings receivers. Not a very strong base there.
Anyway... Why doesn't Bobby just take the money he made when he didn't play and move it over to this year? Now that would be fair. I mean come on Bobby... you're 35!
I appreciate to the fullist him stepping up last year and having a good season but keep in mind that was from the slot where you might get matched up against a LB or safety. At the X or Y spot Engram would not have had the season he had last year. I certainly don't think he'll be up for the task this year either.
Honor your contract as the FO did when you were out all those games.
I would have to side with the organization on this. Engram is 35 yrs old. He didn't have to sign a 2 year deal when he did, but by signing it, it did give him some financial security. Is is smart to give a 35 yr old WR an extension? We all like the guy, he's great for the team and great for the community.
Instead of taking this out on the organization, why not blame his agent? His agent could've included performance incentive clauses in the 2 year contract.
Instead of taking this out on the organization, why not blame his agent? His agent could've included performance incentive clauses in the 2 year contract.
Okay, so we know who leaked the letter, Frank says it in his article. HOLMGREN said Bobby left him a letter on his desk and that he hadn't read it yet but that he thought this was coming when BE said he might not attend the voluntary workouts.
Staying out of voluntary workouts is troublesome because it is here that champions are made and they need to start getting familiar with how the rookies and newly acquired players fit in and how they fit in with the team. So holding out now is just a step above "you stabbed me in the back" in my opinion. Hold out of a mandatory event and it is the same because the actions ARE saying just that.
Management has all the cards here and BE knows it. If BE holds out this year, he'll be a 36 year old WR looking for a job and even Jerry Rice didn't do great or even good things at that age. He was average at best.
Why should management then pay him more when all the statistics show that players age 35 stand a better chance of being injured than not? A mistake prone rookie is money better spent when the 35 year old gets hurt and can't take the field.
So from here, we've heard your complaint Bobby. Yeah, it is what it is, now either go play or shut up, sit down and retire.
Staying out of voluntary workouts is troublesome because it is here that champions are made and they need to start getting familiar with how the rookies and newly acquired players fit in and how they fit in with the team. So holding out now is just a step above "you stabbed me in the back" in my opinion. Hold out of a mandatory event and it is the same because the actions ARE saying just that.
Management has all the cards here and BE knows it. If BE holds out this year, he'll be a 36 year old WR looking for a job and even Jerry Rice didn't do great or even good things at that age. He was average at best.
Why should management then pay him more when all the statistics show that players age 35 stand a better chance of being injured than not? A mistake prone rookie is money better spent when the 35 year old gets hurt and can't take the field.
So from here, we've heard your complaint Bobby. Yeah, it is what it is, now either go play or shut up, sit down and retire.
Thank you PDXCOP80,
Its nice to see someone else show some perspective. We have no idea what this letter said. How many other players would have given his coach the same courtesy? Engram deserves much better than to be trashed by anonymous fans that assume too much.
We all need to remember that Bobby is stating that he had a great year last year and that is true and we all know it. But, he was the one who went into Holmgren's office and told him when Branch and Hackett were injured that he wanted to do whatever was necessary to win and help out the team. He said it, he wasn't asked to. He could have stayed at the position he was at. Burleson could have moved over to the #1 slot. I love Bobby a lot and even more than Alexander but he needs to understand where the team is at as well. I agree to extend him out one more year but after the Alexander incident there is no way Seattle will give an older player a longer contract.
For the team to publicly take this position it creates a no win situation for both sides. To me this dumb negotiation and more evidence that Tim needs to work on his people skills. If it's for PR that's one thing but if it's for real it's foolish. Every situation needs to be assessed according to the situation, one size truly doesn't fit all.
For all those who support the team and are upset with Engram it would be wise to remember there are two sides to every fair bargain. There should not be one position for the team and another position for the player. Both sides have a point and some reasonable compromise should be discussed instead of taking media positions.
For all those who support the team and are upset with Engram it would be wise to remember there are two sides to every fair bargain. There should not be one position for the team and another position for the player. Both sides have a point and some reasonable compromise should be discussed instead of taking media positions.
Look, Bobby is 35 and he see's the end of the line. He wants to cash in on one more bonus before his career is over. I understand where he's coming from, but the Hawks owe him nothing. He just signed a two year contract. He agreed to two years. If he wanted the chance at a higher payday, he should have negotiated a one year deal and taken his chances in the next offseason. But he didn't. Know why? Because no one knew what we were going to get from him coming off his thyroid condition. Including Bobby.
Remember, Bobby tested the FA market before signing with us. He had every opportunity to set his price and this was where the two sides met. In my opinion, the Hawks have been very classy and proffessional about the whole situation. I love ya, Bobby, but have another great year and you can go set your value again.
Remember, Bobby tested the FA market before signing with us. He had every opportunity to set his price and this was where the two sides met. In my opinion, the Hawks have been very classy and proffessional about the whole situation. I love ya, Bobby, but have another great year and you can go set your value again.
Bobby is handling this like a professional but another good thing about him holding out right now is Matt can get some more work with these young receivers.
If any player on this team has a right to hold out it would Leroy Hill who's $550,000 salary is less than backup DD Lewis who's making over $750,000 and Hill has a lot more to lose at this point of his career than Bobby. So I would think if they are renegotiation anyone's contract it would Leroy's.
If any player on this team has a right to hold out it would Leroy Hill who's $550,000 salary is less than backup DD Lewis who's making over $750,000 and Hill has a lot more to lose at this point of his career than Bobby. So I would think if they are renegotiation anyone's contract it would Leroy's.
I wonder how much of this is Bobby's agent's doing. Even if Bobby were satisfied with his salary, his agent would be telling him he should be making more.
I don't think it hurts for Seattle to extend his contract and pay him a little more. Sign him to a two-year $4.5 million contract.
I don't think it hurts for Seattle to extend his contract and pay him a little more. Sign him to a two-year $4.5 million contract.
Why don't we just trade Bobby Ocho then? Bobby is getting paid a market rate for what he does and has done. He had a great year last year but has never even been close to a #1 WR. Typically he has been the #3 behind D-Jack/Robinson then D-Jack/JoeJ.
Bobby's thinking is flawed in that he is comparing his salary and production to the other WRs on the team, when he should be comparing it to others with similar age and production.
Bobby's thinking is flawed in that he is comparing his salary and production to the other WRs on the team, when he should be comparing it to others with similar age and production.
I think the bottom line is this.. Both sides have valid points to argue. But his age and the fact that he has been injured recently don't work in his advantage.
He did great for us last season with the injuries to Branch and Nate still learning this offense, but I think with those two guys healthy for that same streach of games that his production would have been much less than what it was. If he had that kind of production while those two guys were healthy and out produced them both anyway, then fine pay him more.
But to go in and ask for more money after the team stood by him and paid him while he was recovering from his thyroid problem. And who's not to say that Branch will be ready to start the season and ends up missing some more regular season games, and it's up to Bobby and the others stay healty and step up again and produce, then give him an extension before the regular season is over. That seems fair I think..
He did great for us last season with the injuries to Branch and Nate still learning this offense, but I think with those two guys healthy for that same streach of games that his production would have been much less than what it was. If he had that kind of production while those two guys were healthy and out produced them both anyway, then fine pay him more.
But to go in and ask for more money after the team stood by him and paid him while he was recovering from his thyroid problem. And who's not to say that Branch will be ready to start the season and ends up missing some more regular season games, and it's up to Bobby and the others stay healty and step up again and produce, then give him an extension before the regular season is over. That seems fair I think..
I wonder if the 'Hawks aren't taking a tough public stance while working something out in private.......
'Ya know, Bobby, we can't have every player in here renegoiating their deals when they have a good year. But.....we recognize what you've done for us so we'll offer a contract for next year at $X and we'll give you $Y incentives for this year.'
'Ya know, Bobby, we can't have every player in here renegoiating their deals when they have a good year. But.....we recognize what you've done for us so we'll offer a contract for next year at $X and we'll give you $Y incentives for this year.'
seafanalways... yeah, I've heard of the guy... and the name doesn't really scream consistency to me when he admittingly took plays off and played when he "wanted" to. Granted he's in a different situation now.
Besides, Burly got there in 03 and after Moss' hamstring plagued 04 season he was traded to the Raiders, where he was REALLY consistent huh? Both seasons while Burly was there, Moss failed to make the pro bowl although in 03 Moss did had a stellar year. So it's not like Moss and Burleson played together for a long time and got to know each other.
Anyway, good job seafanalways... you got me. Moss is a big name but in my opinion wasn't worth anything while Burleson actually played with him. Just my opinion though...
Besides, Burly got there in 03 and after Moss' hamstring plagued 04 season he was traded to the Raiders, where he was REALLY consistent huh? Both seasons while Burly was there, Moss failed to make the pro bowl although in 03 Moss did had a stellar year. So it's not like Moss and Burleson played together for a long time and got to know each other.
Anyway, good job seafanalways... you got me. Moss is a big name but in my opinion wasn't worth anything while Burleson actually played with him. Just my opinion though...
He has been at every MANDATORY meeting and practice, but waited to until VOLUNTARY camp to make his statement.
This is absolutely the way it should be handled. He has a right to ask for more, within and has been at everything he contractually has to be at.
You notice that the reports say he is the only one that "the team expected" to be at camp that is not. Other players are missing as well.
I compliment him on holding up his obligations - Not making a big deal out of it AND handling himself with class.
and hey this just gives more reps to the young guys WHO NEED IT WAY MORE than he does!!!
This is absolutely the way it should be handled. He has a right to ask for more, within and has been at everything he contractually has to be at.
You notice that the reports say he is the only one that "the team expected" to be at camp that is not. Other players are missing as well.
I compliment him on holding up his obligations - Not making a big deal out of it AND handling himself with class.
and hey this just gives more reps to the young guys WHO NEED IT WAY MORE than he does!!!
As a Hawks fan, I am not concerned about this situation at all. BE has no leverage here. He's not going anywhere. He's too old to be boycotting games or holding out for the season. When the whistle blows, he'll have to be there.
Pretend that you were a GM. Would you extend the contract for 35 yo receiver? No. So I don't think the Hawks' position reflects badly on the organization. Would other teams want to sign him to a contract? No, because he's too old otherwise they would have offered BE a better contract last season when he was a FA. So if the Hawks are the only team who is willing to pay, they can set the price to their liking.
Someone made the comparison to their jobs. You may get upset that other people get paid more than you but they do less. You have the option to find other jobs. But if no other company wants to pay for your talent, then it is what it is. However, one difference is that BE has made millions of dollars and we don't. If the guy has managed his money well, he has enough money for himself and his kids even if they don't work a day. Would it make all of us fans feel better if the number one priority to BE is winning and not money?
Pretend that you were a GM. Would you extend the contract for 35 yo receiver? No. So I don't think the Hawks' position reflects badly on the organization. Would other teams want to sign him to a contract? No, because he's too old otherwise they would have offered BE a better contract last season when he was a FA. So if the Hawks are the only team who is willing to pay, they can set the price to their liking.
Someone made the comparison to their jobs. You may get upset that other people get paid more than you but they do less. You have the option to find other jobs. But if no other company wants to pay for your talent, then it is what it is. However, one difference is that BE has made millions of dollars and we don't. If the guy has managed his money well, he has enough money for himself and his kids even if they don't work a day. Would it make all of us fans feel better if the number one priority to BE is winning and not money?
It would also be nice if our reporters wouldn't write controversial crap about our team. It's not like Bobby is the jerk-off that Chad Johnson is about his situation (where it's impossible to ignore).
Bobby is a team guy and he is handling this situation with class, or as much class as a person who has a year left on his contract can handle it (which isn't much since he's not honoring it).
Which means our reporters, instead of turning the other cheek on this issue like they easily could have, are doing their best (Frank, Farnsworth, etc.) to screw the Seahawks over and prevent them from having a successful season (which p!sses me off).
They are wanting/promoting their newspaper atricles/blogs with controversial information for their personal gain (like many would) instead of doing what's best for the Seattle Seahawks and keeping it on the down low to a certain extent.
Sure, these articles are getting fans in a tizzy, as the reporters want, but it's doing nothing to help our team.
We have a good team. I honestly believe that we are solid at every position (with all guys under contract) and can go back to the Super Bowl; in which most Seahawk fans will watch on tv b/c we all know the 12th Man will not travel (see SB XL in Detroit --- and that's closer to Seattle than Tampa, yet not as nice in Feb).
Bobby is a team guy and he is handling this situation with class, or as much class as a person who has a year left on his contract can handle it (which isn't much since he's not honoring it).
Which means our reporters, instead of turning the other cheek on this issue like they easily could have, are doing their best (Frank, Farnsworth, etc.) to screw the Seahawks over and prevent them from having a successful season (which p!sses me off).
They are wanting/promoting their newspaper atricles/blogs with controversial information for their personal gain (like many would) instead of doing what's best for the Seattle Seahawks and keeping it on the down low to a certain extent.
Sure, these articles are getting fans in a tizzy, as the reporters want, but it's doing nothing to help our team.
We have a good team. I honestly believe that we are solid at every position (with all guys under contract) and can go back to the Super Bowl; in which most Seahawk fans will watch on tv b/c we all know the 12th Man will not travel (see SB XL in Detroit --- and that's closer to Seattle than Tampa, yet not as nice in Feb).
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